Aktivix:AktiviX 2.5

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Summary of meeting that took place on irc to prepare the agenda (or, in case it is easier to download the whole thing as a file, you can do it from here: http://ana.aktivix.org/aktivix/logs/):

1. hosting 2. billing academics - changed with "people for doing stuff for which they are paid" 3. arrange meeting at imc network meet

We start discussion with number 2., then 1.

The academics that have been discussed on aktivix-discuss - we do agree we want to charge them, now that we have agreed to provide a list in exchange of a donation. Now they need an invoice.

ana: i do like the idea of receivnig £1000 but... it should all be based on donations. we should discuss this in london

bunny: costs: aktivix.org.uk and activix.org.uk are coming up for renewal,

there are two types of users

a) there are those who have a list or a/c for their volunterr/political/activism - and that should be donations - in short, unpaid

b) for those who are funded to do what they do or it's "job" stuff - in short, paid

  • if* we host a list or mail a/cs for those who are funded [like in this particular case] r7 [personmally] thinks it's ok to say "give us money".

we can discuss separately, this particular case and whether we want to do it in the future... To discuss: do we want donations? If we do, how do we administer & account for them? Is the situation different if the list or ac holder is funded? do we take on requests from people who are paid for what they do, or do what they do with the aim of making a profit or a living out of it? if we do, in what terms?


1. hosting

There are some developments, various services becoming available to aktivix; they aren't all finalized yet.

Some aktivix accounts have webspace; by default they don't, but if an a/c want some webspace, it'll probably happen, unless they're hosting huge video downloads or something. We'll have clearer picture by the London meeting, as these negotiations are happening at the moment

3. The London meeting - items we want to discuss there

Agenda for london...

  • donations/academics/ jobbers
  • hosting
  • report from PGA
  • future growth for aktivix - criteria for accepting people, if we need to change...
  • admin - how we more efficiently deal with requests, enquiries etc

how to get more admins... how to train.. and wiki documentation for aqdmins

  • to propose in london from this:

1. that we always get back to people, even if it has to be with a no, and that we agreed on how to respond

2. to move aktivix slightly away from riseup, only slightly, and slightly towards sindominio

(long explanation follows:)

in riseup and in aktivix, there is a clear distinction between admins and users. we are almost a service providers, and users are just users, we don't expect anything from them. Although now at riseup they are asking for volunteers (before they only asked for money), and at aktivix now we're thinking of getting more admins on aktivix, and actually getting them which is good.


In sindominio there is no such division. There is of course some computer higiene, but roghly any one can get as much access to restringed areas as they want. every one is expected to sustain the project economically and humanely - i.e. volunteering. It is very closed, there is a structured process to get in, and every one is expected to contribute in an equal basis.

The sindominio approach leaves out goups of squatters, for instance, who have an awful lot of skills but not about maintaining a server; it seems that groups can not get involved unless they have a techie between them. So without moving too much towards a sindominio approach, we could ask a bit more from users than we currently do. For instance we could ask them for references about people who ask us for an account... [as oposed to just discussing them on a closed list] or rounds for donations please, like they do in riseup ;-)

  • infrastructure - aktivix has been 'squatting' another box

4. the london meeting itself

we will ask for workshop space - ideally the haklab 1,2? hours so that we can 'retransmit' it via irc

the meeting is to be called aktivix 2.5

  • "what is aktivix *apart* from a provider of list and email & other services?"

http://www.srcf.ucam.org/~jmr59/aktivix/aktivix_what.pl

is there some kind of continuity between the first aktivix gatherings and now? - people disagree on

bone: there is direct link between aktivix 1 and aktivix n

ana: just because it's the same people, but the project is completely different...

bone: as tech changes .. so does the way we relate to it

ana: aktivix started more like a hackmeeting, a gathering of activists who use free software; now it is more like sindominio, it is a community with an autonomous server

bone: .. and we are about empowering peoople to use free software and autonomous servers. your "we are all admins" could be used to help people provide their own autonomous servers

paste from wiki: "Aktivix is a transparent network of tired hacktivists who attempt to empower community-groups to use technology in a completely collaborative manner." see http://www.srcf.ucam.org/~jmr59/aktivix/aktivix_what.pl

discussion to be continued in London.

  • wiki/other_widget & lists for support, documenting useful stuff


full logs...

        • BEGIN LOGGING AT Sun Oct 8 19:55:25 2006

Oct 08 19:55:24 ana ok let me put gdm's points here ... Oct 08 19:55:40 ana gdm 1 hosting Oct 08 19:55:40 ana gdm 2. billing acadmics (you saw thoughts in channel) Oct 08 19:55:40 ana gdm 3. arrange meeting at imc network meet - i'm up for that :) Oct 08 19:56:05 r7 how's alive and listened apart from /me & ana? Oct 08 19:56:10 r7 who's... Oct 08 19:58:10 r7 that would seem to be /me & ana then... Oct 08 19:58:19 ana ohh nooo Oct 08 19:58:32 ana shall i make some noise on people's computers? Oct 08 19:58:41 ana bone_idol, -- i have called this one Oct 08 19:58:44 ana chrisc, Oct 08 19:58:47 ana Alster, Oct 08 19:58:48 ana bunny, Oct 08 19:58:53 r7 well ekes will be at work and gdm is out Oct 08 19:59:05 ana ok then Oct 08 19:59:06 Alster huh Oct 08 19:59:28 ana we're having an AkTiVix meeting here Alster ... Oct 08 19:59:42 ana (can't remember if that was the original spelling hehe) Oct 08 19:59:55 Alster oh, that's good, but i'm not part of aktivix :) Oct 08 20:00:13 r7 AktiviX i believe Oct 08 20:13:35 ana ok sorry, Oct 08 20:13:42 ana whall we indeed have a meeting? Oct 08 20:14:06 ana gdm's points are fine, i just think we should be preparing for the meeting in london, not talk about the actual issues here Oct 08 20:14:37 ana so his points are hosting and charging academics Oct 08 20:14:57 ana i would change the second to charging people for doing stuff for which they are paid Oct 08 20:15:04 * r7 nods Oct 08 20:15:20 ana is r7 nodding to all? :-) Oct 08 20:15:28 * r7 thinks the discussion is more about the mechanism of payment & billing Oct 08 20:15:34 r7 rather than the principle Oct 08 20:15:43 ana ok so we all want to charge them :-) Oct 08 20:15:54 ana thing is, Oct 08 20:15:59 ana once you start charging, Oct 08 20:16:11 ana they do "buy" the right to expect some good service... Oct 08 20:16:20 r7 they get a good service Oct 08 20:16:24 r7 ;-) Oct 08 20:16:24 ana not that these in particular have complained Oct 08 20:16:36 ana well... Oct 08 20:16:43 ana it does take us a while to answer ;-) Oct 08 20:16:47 ana anyhow- Oct 08 20:16:55 ana i do like the idea of receivnig £1000 Oct 08 20:16:57 ana but... Oct 08 20:17:07 ana i think we should discuss this in london Oct 08 20:17:25 ana i think we should document it, Oct 08 20:17:46 ana and unless you have a coop that is willing to make a bill Oct 08 20:17:49 ana write a bill Oct 08 20:18:00 ana it should all be based on donations Oct 08 20:18:13 ana but this is just an idea Oct 08 20:18:32 ana throw your ideas or let's move on to the 3rd point on the agenda Oct 08 20:18:40 r7 there are two types of users Oct 08 20:18:58 bunny on issue of costs aktivix.org.uk and activix.org.uk are coming up for renewal, I allready renewed activix.org (as opposeed to aktivix.org) as that I think is common mistake but not so sure about uk domains. Oct 08 20:19:05 r7 there are those who have a list or a/c for their volunterr/political/activism Oct 08 20:19:23 r7 and that should be donations Oct 08 20:19:30 r7 all gratefully received of course Oct 08 20:19:51 r7 for those who are funded to do what they do Oct 08 20:19:59 r7 or it's "job" stuff Oct 08 20:20:11 ana sorry didn't understand... Oct 08 20:20:15 r7 which i think it is in this particular case Oct 08 20:20:23 ana 2 types: paid or unpaid for their political activism? Oct 08 20:20:56 bone_idol hi world Oct 08 20:21:10 r7 *if* we host a list or mail a/cs for those who are funded Oct 08 20:21:40 r7 [like in this particular case] Oct 08 20:21:56 ana hi :-) Oct 08 20:22:09 * r7 [personmally] thinks it's ok to say Oct 08 20:22:14 r7 give us money Oct 08 20:22:28 r7 whether that's a bill or compulsory donation i care not Oct 08 20:22:36 r7 in this particular case Oct 08 20:22:51 ana ok Oct 08 20:22:54 r7 they have to have paperwork to account for their money Oct 08 20:23:02 r7 [quite correctly of course] Oct 08 20:23:02 ana yes i understand that.... Oct 08 20:23:16 r7 so a bill would seem to be the right way to go Oct 08 20:23:20 ana i think we can discuss separately, Oct 08 20:23:26 ana this particular case Oct 08 20:23:35 ana and whether we want to do it in the future... Oct 08 20:24:16 * ana would be happy setting up exactly what needs to be talked about and leave the actual discussion for london Oct 08 20:24:39 r7 ok Oct 08 20:24:46 r7 so the subject is really Oct 08 20:24:56 r7 do we want donations? Oct 08 20:25:09 r7 how do we administer & account for them? Oct 08 20:25:18 r7 [if yes ;-)] Oct 08 20:25:39 ana no i don't think that is the subject... Oct 08 20:25:43 r7 is the situation different if the list or ac holder is funded? Oct 08 20:25:48 ana yes Oct 08 20:25:59 ana hmm Oct 08 20:26:13 ana yes, substantially Oct 08 20:26:30 ana it is almost as if it they paid for what they do, as a job Oct 08 20:26:45 ana so the question would be... Oct 08 20:27:10 ana do we take on requests from people who are paid for what they do? Oct 08 20:27:31 ana or do what they do with the aim of making a profit or a living out of it? Oct 08 20:27:35 ana if we do, Oct 08 20:27:37 ana in what terms Oct 08 20:27:51 ana can we leave it at that? Oct 08 20:28:01 r7 y Oct 08 20:29:31 ana do we want to talk about hosting? Oct 08 20:29:55 r7 there are some developments Oct 08 20:30:19 r7 wrt my work/the bitwork co-op and various services becoming availabel Oct 08 20:30:23 r7 to aktivix Oct 08 20:30:41 r7 they aren't all finalized yet Oct 08 20:30:55 ana wrt? Oct 08 20:30:57 ana bitwork? Oct 08 20:31:04 r7 with respect to Oct 08 20:31:23 ana is the bitwork your co-op? Oct 08 20:31:42 r7 bitwork is a sheffield it workers' co-op than includes /me, bone_idol & chrisc amongst others Oct 08 20:32:21 r7 we are negociating with my work about extra rackspace and bandwidth Oct 08 20:32:41 ana you are negotiating... for the coop? Oct 08 20:32:46 ana or also for aktivix? Oct 08 20:32:47 r7 some of this extra stuff will ba available to aktivix i believe Oct 08 20:32:53 ana i see Oct 08 20:32:55 ana one question... Oct 08 20:33:07 ana i do have one page on ana.aktivix.org Oct 08 20:33:09 r7 go ahead Oct 08 20:33:11 ana well maybe a few pages Oct 08 20:33:24 ana is that just a priviledte of mine? Oct 08 20:33:31 ana priviledge Oct 08 20:33:36 ana privilege Oct 08 20:33:45 r7 some aktivix acs have webspace Oct 08 20:33:53 r7 by default they don't Oct 08 20:33:54 ana ah not all Oct 08 20:33:57 ana ah ok i see Oct 08 20:34:03 ana so we would like that all of them have... Oct 08 20:34:07 ana ? Oct 08 20:34:30 r7 but if an a/c want some webspace, it'll probably happen Oct 08 20:34:39 r7 unless they're hosting huge video downloads or summat Oct 08 20:34:42 bone_idol no reason why not.. we have some infrastructurla changes to make before that can be so. though Oct 08 20:35:02 r7 bone_idol: hi Oct 08 20:35:34 ana ok so what would be needed to decide in london? Oct 08 20:36:00 r7 well we'll have clearer picture by then Oct 08 20:36:07 ana ok Oct 08 20:36:14 r7 as these negotiations are happening at the moment Oct 08 20:36:19 ana what other things need to be discussed in london? Oct 08 20:36:36 bone_idol hi .. I'm busy putting some wireless nodes .. so my connection and attention span flaky Oct 08 20:36:39 bone_idol London.. I liked gdm 's agenda.. Oct 08 20:36:41 ana ok Oct 08 20:36:47 bone_idol also Iwould add report from PGA Oct 08 20:36:49 ana i think he only had 2 points... Oct 08 20:36:51 ana ah yes Oct 08 20:37:07 ana well, people who attended need to work a bit on documentation Oct 08 20:37:19 bone_idol and future growth for aktivix Oct 08 20:37:22 ana yes Oct 08 20:37:32 ana criteria for accepting people, if we need to change... Oct 08 20:37:36 * r7 wld like to talk about admin ;-) Oct 08 20:37:41 ana now? Oct 08 20:37:44 r7 no Oct 08 20:37:47 ana ok Oct 08 20:37:49 r7 in london Oct 08 20:37:51 ana sure Oct 08 20:38:01 ana i would like to propose in london... Oct 08 20:38:05 r7 how we more efficiently deal with requests Oct 08 20:38:10 r7 enquiries etc Oct 08 20:38:15 * ana agrees Oct 08 20:38:33 * bone_idol seconds admin thread ... we could do how to get more admins... how to train.. Oct 08 20:38:35 r7 and wiki documentation for aqdmins Oct 08 20:38:39 ana ok 2 things i would like to propose in london from this Oct 08 20:38:48 ana 1. that we always get back to people, even with a no Oct 08 20:38:58 ana but with an "agreed" no on how to respond Oct 08 20:39:05 ana and we agree that "no" in london Oct 08 20:39:11 ana 2. to move aktivix slightly away from riseup Oct 08 20:39:14 ana only slightly Oct 08 20:39:22 ana and slightly towards sindominio Oct 08 20:39:47 ana would you like me to explain this here or in london? Oct 08 20:39:48 r7 that subtlety is lost on me... Oct 08 20:40:04 bone_idol please expand .. but in a email to discuss. Oct 08 20:40:10 bone_idol unless you have time now Oct 08 20:40:10 ana brrrr Oct 08 20:40:13 ana ah ok Oct 08 20:40:16 ana let's try Oct 08 20:40:22 ana i will make a summary of these logs anyway Oct 08 20:40:26 ana unless you want to do it... Oct 08 20:40:28 ana ok Oct 08 20:40:35 ana in riseup and in aktivix, Oct 08 20:40:40 ana there is a clear distinction Oct 08 20:40:45 ana between admins and users Oct 08 20:40:52 ana we are almost a service providers Oct 08 20:41:08 ana and users Oct 08 20:41:13 ana are just users, Oct 08 20:41:18 ana we don't expect anything from them Oct 08 20:41:27 ana it is only now that riseup is asking for volunteers, Oct 08 20:41:32 ana before they only asked for money Oct 08 20:41:46 ana and now we're thinking of getting more admins on aktivix Oct 08 20:41:57 ana which is great and my involvement is a result of that Oct 08 20:41:58 ana but Oct 08 20:42:05 ana wrong word - now Oct 08 20:42:08 ana sindominio Oct 08 20:42:14 ana there is no such division Oct 08 20:42:31 ana there is of course some computer higiene, Oct 08 20:42:48 ana but roghly any one can get as much access to restringed areas as they want Oct 08 20:43:11 ana every one is expected to sustain the project economically and humanely - i.e. volunteering Oct 08 20:43:19 ana then it is very closed Oct 08 20:43:34 ana there is some process to get in Oct 08 20:43:43 ana and every one is expected to contribute in an equal basis Oct 08 20:43:55 ana i'm not sure if it is a joke, Oct 08 20:44:00 ana but i saw once in an email, Oct 08 20:44:08 ana or somewhere Oct 08 20:44:09 ana that Oct 08 20:44:43 ana "the only difficult thing you are asked Oct 08 20:44:46 ana [as part of the questions/tasks you are asked to answer/do in joining sindominio] Oct 08 20:44:57 ana is to install debian in a toaster" Oct 08 20:45:13 bone_idol heh Oct 08 20:45:15 ana so there it is Oct 08 20:45:20 ana i know ;-) Oct 08 20:45:24 ana hehe Oct 08 20:45:28 ana i hope it was a joke Oct 08 20:45:30 * bone_idol thinks this is a good thread.. I would like to investigate this furhter Oct 08 20:45:37 ana haha Oct 08 20:45:38 r7 apt-get install toasterlib Oct 08 20:45:41 ana XD Oct 08 20:45:48 ana anyway, Oct 08 20:46:00 * r7 uses gnutoaster Oct 08 20:46:00 ana i don#t like the sindominio approach, Oct 08 20:46:10 ana because that leaves out goups of squatters, for instance Oct 08 20:46:24 ana who have an awful lot of skills but not about maintaining a server Oct 08 20:46:44 ana so groups can not get involved unless they have a techie between them Oct 08 20:46:46 ana but, Oct 08 20:46:57 ana i think we could ask a bit of users tho Oct 08 20:47:05 ana anyway, that would be my proposal Oct 08 20:47:38 ana for instance we could ask them for references about people who ask us for an account... Oct 08 20:47:55 * r7 nods Oct 08 20:47:55 * r7 nthis is interesteing Oct 08 20:48:09 r7 fuckin' lag Oct 08 20:48:16 ana or rounds for donations please, like they do in riseup ;-) Oct 08 20:48:18 ana lag? Oct 08 20:48:29 bone_idol its a good proposal .. I would like to investigate in more detail.. add it to the agenda on the wiki page? do we have a wiki page yet Oct 08 20:48:32 bone_idol ? Oct 08 20:48:46 ana one sindomino guy told me he usually has to give them €20 every 3 months or so Oct 08 20:48:49 ana i don't think we do... Oct 08 20:49:09 ana ok next point would be, Oct 08 20:49:13 ana the actual meeting in london.. Oct 08 20:49:17 r7 this is also related to the infrastructure discussion Oct 08 20:49:18 ana i don't think we can discuss all this Oct 08 20:49:28 ana unless we give ourselves aobut 1 or 2 hours Oct 08 20:49:40 ana yes Oct 08 20:49:42 r7 because aktivix has been 'squatting' another box Oct 08 20:49:49 bone_idol how much time are we having at london ? 1 day ? 1/2 day , 2 days ? Oct 08 20:49:49 ana yes... Oct 08 20:49:55 ana in theory 2 days Oct 08 20:50:01 ana in reality ... Oct 08 20:50:13 r7 but some folks will be there to do indy stuff too Oct 08 20:50:17 ana people arrive sat 10, 11 am or sth Oct 08 20:50:28 ana people leave sun 4pm Oct 08 20:50:31 ana yse Oct 08 20:50:32 ana yes Oct 08 20:50:47 r7 my focus will be aktivix tho Oct 08 20:50:49 ana sat afternoon and sun morning are for workshops, usually Oct 08 20:50:55 ana i think mine too ;-) Oct 08 20:51:03 ana but gdm's, or ekes', or chrisc's Oct 08 20:51:06 ana i think Oct 08 20:51:14 ana so... Oct 08 20:51:25 ana would we like to ask for workshop space? Oct 08 20:51:32 ana as in, separate workshop space? Oct 08 20:51:42 ana i think it is more realistic than just lunchtime Oct 08 20:51:57 * r7 nods Oct 08 20:52:34 ana let me propose this: Oct 08 20:52:42 ana that we ask the indy lot/rampart lot Oct 08 20:52:50 ana that we need, for our aktivix meeting, Oct 08 20:52:52 ana the haklab Oct 08 20:52:57 ana for 1,2? hours Oct 08 20:52:59 r7 :-) Oct 08 20:53:06 ana so that we can 'retransmit' it via irc Oct 08 20:53:14 bone_idol there is wireless ? at rampart ? Oct 08 20:53:20 ana yes i think so Oct 08 20:53:30 ana but there are 7 or 8 compuers too... Oct 08 20:53:37 ana all BSD tho Oct 08 20:53:39 ana just one ubuntu Oct 08 20:54:00 bone_idol matters not .. ( as long as it is free software ) Oct 08 20:54:19 ana we could - just could - Oct 08 20:54:22 ana meet in the office Oct 08 20:54:29 ana where there is mainly windows :-/ Oct 08 20:54:36 ana just one ubuntu last time i was there... Oct 08 20:54:41 ana but a lot more private... Oct 08 20:54:48 r7 \the hacklab sounds a better option Oct 08 20:54:53 ana not so much space but i wonder if it will be many of us Oct 08 20:54:53 bone_idol well how many are to be at aktivix 2.5 Oct 08 20:54:58 ana only problem is, Oct 08 20:55:03 bone_idol 5 or 10 ? Oct 08 20:55:10 ana on saturdays it is usually an open day Oct 08 20:55:20 ana having said that, Oct 08 20:55:28 ana we 'have' had meetings there on saturdays afternoons Oct 08 20:55:43 ana just will have to be kind of in a corner Oct 08 20:56:16 ana one more thing, Oct 08 20:56:29 ana shall we call this an "aktivix mini meeting," Oct 08 20:56:37 ana "aktivix meeting", Oct 08 20:56:40 r7 NO! Oct 08 20:56:43 ana or "aktivix tech meeting"? Oct 08 20:56:47 r7 mini-aktivix meeting Oct 08 20:56:49 ana what then> Oct 08 20:56:55 * r7 is kidding Oct 08 20:57:00 bone_idol aktivix 2.5 ? Oct 08 20:57:06 * r7 likes that Oct 08 20:57:14 r7 'nother thinbg for aganda Oct 08 20:57:19 ana it needs to be understood by other people... Oct 08 20:57:19 r7 agenda Oct 08 20:57:24 * ana doesn't like that name Oct 08 20:57:26 ana go ahead Oct 08 20:57:38 bone_idol awww why not ? Oct 08 20:57:48 r7 "what is aktivix *apart* from a provider of list and email & other services?" Oct 08 20:58:06 ana yes Oct 08 20:58:12 bone_idol that is in gdm's "waht is aktivix" Oct 08 20:58:13 * r7 has ideas on this Oct 08 20:58:15 ana an autonomous server? Oct 08 20:58:19 r7 ah yes Oct 08 20:58:30 ana that is why i don't like the name Oct 08 20:58:37 bone_idol http://www.srcf.ucam.org/~jmr59/aktivix/aktivix_what.pl Oct 08 20:58:38 ana it implies that there is some kind of continuity Oct 08 20:58:46 ana between the first aktivix gatherings and now Oct 08 20:58:49 ana when there is not Oct 08 20:58:55 r7 there is Oct 08 20:58:55 ana there is a huge step Oct 08 20:58:56 bone_idol ig there is not .. there should be Oct 08 20:59:11 ana step aside, Oct 08 20:59:14 ana forward, Oct 08 20:59:16 ana i don't know Oct 08 20:59:18 bone_idol there is direct link between aktivix 1 and aktivix n Oct 08 20:59:33 ana just because of the people maybe Oct 08 20:59:39 ana 'cause its the same people Oct 08 20:59:47 ana but the project is completely different... Oct 08 20:59:56 bone_idol and i think you sindonio / riseup diff could be used to show the links Oct 08 21:00:06 ana hmmmm Oct 08 21:00:17 ana ok using spanish scene as a reference again, Oct 08 21:00:22 bone_idol as tech changes .. so does the way we relate to it Oct 08 21:00:23 ana aktivix is more like a hackmeeting Oct 08 21:00:36 ana sindominio is an autonomous server Oct 08 21:00:40 ana with a community of course Oct 08 21:00:42 bone_idol .. and we are about empowering peoople to use free software and autonomous servers Oct 08 21:00:48 ana and both interrealate... Oct 08 21:01:06 ana ok let's talk about this in londo Oct 08 21:01:09 ana london Oct 08 21:01:21 bone_idol .. your we are all admins .. could be used to help people provide their own autonomous servers Oct 08 21:01:32 ana pfff Oct 08 21:01:33 bone_idol yes lets do this in lonodon Oct 08 21:01:37 r7 indeed Oct 08 21:01:38 ana not without a legal structure, i don't think Oct 08 21:01:40 bone_idol pfff Oct 08 21:01:44 ana hehe Oct 08 21:01:58 r7 we can add into this dicussion f2f meeting [of the I & II type] Oct 08 21:02:03 bone_idol yes please Oct 08 21:02:07 ana ok Oct 08 21:02:23 r7 wiki/other_widget & lists for support Oct 08 21:02:31 ana ? Oct 08 21:02:43 r7 documenting useful stuff Oct 08 21:02:57 ana look, if you set up a page to put this agenda, meeting etc. on it, Oct 08 21:03:04 ana i can stick this log and/or summary there Oct 08 21:03:11 r7 cool Oct 08 21:03:13 ana and can send it to aktivix discuss

        • ENDING LOGGING AT Sun Oct 8 21:03:34 2006
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